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Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 16:46:00 - [1] Ok. I want to know people's opinions on this matter. The other day, my corpmate was mining in high sec. He was then stolen from by a guy in a T2 frigate (Ishkur). I was in a small gang with my alliance mates at the time. They are all in a different corp, but we fly together almost daily... The thing is, we (our gang of 4), flew to the system where my corpmate was being basically griefed in high sec. He was basically being harassed by this player who had nothing better to do than steal ore (2 or 3 units at a time). Once my gang got to the asteroid belt, this T2 frig was red to me in my overview, so I attacked him in my well fitted Thorax. The battle was on, but to my shock, all my FLEET MATES could do was watch him slowly destroy me. The battle took a good 5 minutes, but he finally took me down, and then flew off with no consequences. My question is this... why the hell can't Alliance mates that are IN MY FLEET engage a guy that I can engage??? I think this is totally absurd. I can understand possibly not allowing ALL alliance mates to have kill rights, but for Goddsakes, if they are in my fleet and ALLIED to me and my corp mate that is also in the gang, why the hell can't they attack this griefer??? Am I missing something here??? The griefer laughed at me and said it "wouldn't be fair to him" if my alliance mates were able to target him. That, to me, is a raging joke.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 16:48:00 - [2] yeah, its a bug... I had to pay 10 buck to Eve to get a new portrait, which after 2 months still has not been updated here in the forums...
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 17:20:00 - [3] So, any advice as to a workaround on this? The only thing I can come up with is simply merging the Corps in the alliance, as the "Alliance" seems pretty much useless...
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:35:00 - [4] Well, this is not the point, but firstly, I am only a 2 month old character... no excuses there, just is what it is... I had T2 small blasters and fed navy ammo, a MWD some T2 hardeners, cap boosters etc... he outlasted my cap. I had him down to less than half his armor, and he was nos'ing me, stealing all my cap. I am not that experienced of a pvper... the point is... my GANG/FLEET should have been able to help.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:39:00 - [5] Plus he had me warp scrammed at the end. I had a T2 warp scrambler as well, and was using it on him in the beginning, but my cap was being thouroughly drained... again... not the point. the point is, what the hell use is forming a fleet with your alliance mates if they can't help you? and BTW, he is over a year old character, and the Ishkur is not a pushover ship. You guys are assuming a T1 cruiser worth 6 million should easily beat a T2 assault Frig... Not to say in the past, I HAVE taken down an Ishkur before, but it definitely is not "easy"
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:47:00 - [6] Dez, thanks for the tips, I appreciate that... (really) But whats te point of an alliance? If you are in the SAME FLEET with alliance mates, can you give me one good reason why they shouldn't have kill rights? Just one reason may be enough to sway my opinion if it is a good reason. I am an open minded guy...
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 18:55:00 - [7] Well thats the risk you are taking if you are griefing a miner IMO... he wasnt trying to get a fight with a cruiser... He was trying to get a fight with a peaceful miner. I am not a carebear myself, but I respect ppl who mine. BTW, i did use T1 hammerheads, 5 of them, but he had T2 drones attacking me...
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:13:00 - [8] ahhhh. We (me and the other 3 alliance mates) were in a fleet when the theft took place. We then invited my corp mate to the fleet, and he joined us. Then me and the alliance mates waited in a spot until the guy in the Ishkur stole again... So I am guessing that the entire fleet was formed when the 2nd/3rd theft took place.. are you saying that if we were all in fleet (including the guy being stolen from) that we should have had kill rights? because if so, I'm pretty sure we were all in a fleet together at that point.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Misha Fillechienne Whats going on with your head? I guess you didn't read the third post in this thread... thanks at least for the "bump".
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 19:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Femaref Well you should have just killed his drones - They are the most of his damage. Good point. In the beginning of the fight, it looked pretty good for me... he gradually killed me with his drones... Next time, if I am ever in the situation again, i will do that. Thank you for the input, although I still think the fleet rules are screwy. The other thing thats dumb is that I can't practice pvp with alliance mates either... Still trying to see any real reason at all for alliances.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.09 20:22:00 - [11] Originally by: JAG Wolfe Dude... what's up with your head? LOL - just kidding Must be annoying when trying to have a serious discussion to have people pointing out your floating head.. :) Lol... yes... VERY annoying. I was actually going to make that point earlier, but decided not to Thanks for doing it for me
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:12:00 - [12] So, do you think it's an accident or just something CCP doesn't think is important? The fleet/gang rules are screwy as well when you group run missions and try to tractor beam one of your fleetmates wrecks... Says something like, this wreck is not owned by you, you can't use your tractor beams on it. How long have fleets/gangs been in existence? Still seem pretty buggy to me.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Tamia Clant The aggressions flags are pretty clear. Stealing loot/ore from a player causes the thief to get flagged to anyone in his corp and in his fleet. The problem is that your alliance mates were NOT in the same fleet as the miner when the theft took place, so the flag only applied to corp members. That is not correct, only the corp owning the can will get the flagging, no one else. And that's exactly what I think is ridiculous... whats the point of fleeting together or being in an alliance? It makes absolutely no sense. Think about it. If a unit of US infantry in Iraq was getting shot at , and there were also some British soldiers there... Do you think the British would just be like, "Cheerio, good luck with that ya ****ers..." I doubt it. It makes absolutely no sense at all.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.11 03:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Maglorre The correct solution has already been stated in this thread. Always have remote repair capabilities in your gangs. If your gang members had had a remote armor rep (or even shield transfer) or a couple of remote rep drones they could have kept you alive. The end result would have been that you either managed to keep him scrammed and eventually killed him or you ran out of cap and he manages to run away. There is also a third possible result if the other pilot is a complete ******. When someone remote reps you they become flagged to the pilot attacking you. So, gang members repair you and the hostile is then able to attack them as well. IF he is stupid enough to do this then those he attacks can shoot back. Anyway, learn to use remote repair (modules or drones) and use them. Just be careful not to accidentally repair any NPCs in high sec I suppose that is a decent "workaround", and was already discussed by our alliace mates, but why? Why shouldn't ppl that are in my fleet at the time of hostilities not be able to fire upon our common enemy? Whats the point of fleeting up? I appreciate your solution to the problem, but it still begs the question... Why can't we fire upon a common enemy? Why did CCP make alliance/fleet rules this way in the first place? What would be the harm in actually allowing fleetmates that are allied to you that are in the same system, less than 5000 meters away fire upon a common enemy?
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.12 01:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Illyrinia lol... you lost a thorax to a af? lol... loooolllll..... lol... loool.... hmmmm lol.... alliance members cant shoot ships that take from a corps can...lol... whew ive seen a harpy tear apart a domi, that, was funny, then tear apart a bc, and 2 cruisers. 1 word.... WEB Yeah a T2 assault frig with a char thats over a year old beat my 2 month old char in a T1 cruiser... barely. Do you always act like a jackass, or are you just high? the looollll part was especially douchey, but if that kind of expression makes you feel better about yourself, be my guest. I'm sure your ass has been kicked more than once. As a matter of fact, I looked your name up on Battleclinic and see that, yes, indeed, you have actually gotten your ass kicked quite a few times. http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=player&name=Illyrinia&filter=losses&page=3#recent So laugh it up all you want in the forums here, and keep taking it like a champ !!! Beside the point that this thread is not about what was lost or killed. Its about the fact that fleet/gang rules are a joke.
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.12 01:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Shogun Archer And that's exactly what I think is ridiculous... whats the point of fleeting together or being in an alliance? Gang bonuses. Point taken.. That and remote repping seem to be the best anyone can offer, and yes, two very valid plusses, granted... Still, does anyone know, (maybe some CCP people) why alliance mates that are in the same fleet/same syatem aren't allowed kill rights? Who are we tring to protect here? The person griefing or the people getting griefed? I want one reason why Alliance mates in the same fleet aren't allowed kill rights, not things that fleeted allies can still do (remote rep, gang bonuses)... Why the nerf on not allowing them to engage?
Shogun Archer Gallente SINco. SYBERIS	Posted - 2008.02.12 22:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Agor Dirdonen You already have more then what you had in the past. There has been a time when everybody and his grandmother could steal from your can. There was absolutely nothing you could do to prevent it except use Giant Secure Containers to mine in. There was lots of complaining on the forums about this. Then CCP succumbed and implemented thieving aggro rights. Both the miner and his corp get killrights on the thief. If that's not enough to kill the guy, don't attack him. Did you really have to shoot the guy? He was using this tactic to bait someone to shoot him. Was he stealing a fortune? To come back to your discussion, when alliance members will also get a chance to kill him when they're in a gang, it wouldn't take long before someone asks why his non-alliance friends in his fleet cannot shoot the thief. When that's implemented, why should non-fleet members not be allowed to shoot him either? Actually, now that I'm thinking about it... do we need somebody to actually steal something to be able to shoot him at all? It's a game mechanic that already exists for a long time. If you would have known it, you wouldn't have attacked most likely. You didn't and you got smoked.... Look at it as a valuable lesson that you learned. Wow. Well said Agor. Honestly, you just put it into perspective to me. I really should just chalk it up as a learning experience and move on... We are at least able to aggro thieves now, so thats good. I know this game has evolved quite a bit from what it was in the early days... Thank you so much for laying it out that way. It's still a little weird and not realistic to a degree, but ok. It is what it is. Thanks

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